Amerikkka land of the jailed (But China is defo AuThOrITarIAn!!)

The fuck is up with the Chinese propaganda on this website…

There are a lot of communists on Lemmy, and communists tend to support socialist countries. Simple as that. Plus, in the current era where the US Empire is dying, China is presenting itself as a better trade partner for the global south, one focused more on multilateralism and not on imperialism.

Alright, you did convince me that the Chinese people report strong support to the CCP and report a strong perception of democracy.
What I am still not convinced of however, is that PRC IS democratic.

In my book, for a country to be democratic it needs to have:

• Freedom of speech
• Freedom of press
• Freedom of reunion
• Freedom of protest
• Universal access to education
• Political plurality
• Universal suffrage
• Universal respect of human right

My opinion today is that, I highly doubt PRC qualifies to any of this points, but I don’t know for sure. If you convince me with credible evidence that PRC is better than, let’s say, France, Germany or Norway, on all these points, then I am ready to move to China with you next year.

Edit: I forgot a few important point on my democratic list of requirements:

• Laicity (division of state and religion and tolerance for all religions)
• Division of power (Legislative, Justice, Executive, etc, must be help by different institution regulating each other)

You mean freedom of speech… That’s what you’re saying is not an important value? The freedom to speak truth to power without the goon squad kicking down your door? Clearly that is being eroded in the US right now, but China certainly doesn’t have it.

China has it for the working class. Capitalist speech and misinformation are targeted, but the working class is largely free to say what they want.

Why are they trying to brute-force propaganda? At least be subtle, and bribe us next time.

It doesn’t exist, how is that hard to admit for you? Freedom of speech is intended to protect exactly the kind of speech you disagree with, otherwise it’s not a thing. “Largely free” = NOT FREE

First of all, you have a very liberal-minded understanding of democracy. A lot of these values are really only “valid” in as much as they apply to capitalists in the west. For example:

1. Freedom of Speech
2. Freedom of Press

Both of these only exist in the west as far as they can be abused by those with enough money to buy the media narrative. In China, speech of capitalists and misinformation is cracked down on, but the working class is largely left to speak what they want.

Freedom of reunion (I take to mean freedom of assembly) is partially valid. As China is a socialist country, and the class struggle is very much still alive, creating groups opposed to socialism is cracked down on more. However, there exist many specialty groups, in fact there are 8 political parties other than the CPC that work cooperatively with the CPC when it comes to governing.

Freedom of protest is fine. Protests and public backlash are what caused the CPC to back off on COVID restrictions, even though the CPC was correct. You can’t really aim to overthrow socialism or anything, but protests for example are often supported by the CPC against capitalists.

Education is kept extremely cheap in China. Schools are extremely competitive as well, partially because of how many people there are competing for the top universities, but overall education is extremely affordable. It isn’t free as far as I’m aware, but it isn’t a block for the working class.

Regarding political plurality, there’s a saying in China: “let a hundred flowers bloom, a hundred schools of thought contend.” I recommend this article on Roland Boer’s trip to China.

As for universal suffrage:

>All citizens of the People’s Republic of China who have reached the age of 18 have the right to vote and stand for election, regardless of ethnic background, race, sex, occupation, family background, religious belief, education level, property status or length of residence. People who have been deprived of their political rights according to law do not have the right to vote and stand for election. One voter has only one vote in each election.

As for universal respect of human rights, China does quite well, and unlike the countries you listed, it isn’t imperialist. France, Germany, Norway, the west in general, all depend on vast looting and plundering of the global south. China doesn’t, it runs on largely its own production, which is why countries in the global south are flocking to China for construction contracts and to join the Belt and Road Initiative.

Imperialist countries in the west use vast exports of capital to super-exploit international labor for super-profits, that’s where western safety nets come from. Essentially, you can think of the west as capitalists in country form, exploiting those under their domination, while China is aligned with the global south and doesn’t have that private domination of finance capital that enables imperialism in the first place.

I’m not moving to China anytime soon. I can’t speak Mandarin, and I have friends and family where I live. I do organize with communists, though, and would love to bring about socialism in my country.

Edit for your edit:

Religion is protected.

As for “separation of powers,” this circles back to you having a thoroughly liberal understanding of politics. Government should cooperate in a functional society, not work against itself. Capitalist countries rely on this instability of government in order to keep capital on top, but there’s no actual reasoning for it. The churn, the competition, it’s all by design to keep society turned against itself instead of cooperating.

What do you mean by “brute-forcing” propaganda? Agitprop is one of the main ways communists recruit new members.

Then nowhere has freedom of speech. True freedom of speech only exists for the ruling class of society, and the speech of those other classes oppressed by them that agree with the ruling class. In the US Empire, freedom of speech only truly exists for capitalists. In the PRC, it’s the opposite, it only exists for the working class, and those who do not oppose the working class.

China is about as socialist as my shit is a bouquet of roses.

It’s capitalism. It’s always capitalism.

The large firms and key industries are overwhelmingly publicly owned, and the working class is in charge of the state. It’s been socialist since the CPC beat the Kuomintang. The presence of private property in a system doesn’t mean the system is capitalist, this was already understood in Marx’s time.

So, authoritarian is when they don’t bomb other countries, and libertarian is when they bomb every day?

If they are, its impossible to distinguish them from the targeted downvote bots ppl have written for lemmy.

Not as well supported by sources as you previous replies, such a shame. But you gave me a good laugh

In what way is this funny?

Terms like Authoritarianism and Totalitarianism were defined or entrenched by a lot of western supremacist authors, who needed to twist terminology in such a way that excluded the US (capitalism’s worldwide enforcer and the cause of so much death and destruction) from any wrongdoing, while demonizing the colonial world who fought back against the US for their own sovereignty as “authoritarian”.

I highly suggest reading Losurdo’s - Western Marxism, for an in-depth analysis of some of these white supremacist authors, and how they demonize the anti-colonial struggle.

• https://dessalines.github.io/essays/socialism_faq.html#whats-going-on-with-the-uyghurs
• https://redsails.org/friendly-feudalism/
• https://historicly.substack.com/p/tibet-china-and-the-violent-reaction
• https://stalinsmoustache.org/2018/09/19/maos-liberation-of-tibet/
• http://www.ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/peace-and-prosperity/2015/february/02/obama-admits-us-role-in-ukraine-overthrow/