Is #mastodon becoming an echo chamber?
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@JoBlakely @xgranade @danirabbit @scottjenson
Hadn’t heard of that before. Very interesting read, thanks.
@Jakenke @xgranade @danirabbit @scottjenson
AI made it exponentially worse just as we were making progress with solar, wind, etc. it derailed progress. That is why it is so terrible. It is not a scapegoat it is a cause. It did not build a foundation for its own sustainability before it was thrust upon us prematurely. They fired their ethics people. They can’t profit from it without it infecting everything.
What it actually is being used as is a Maxwell’s Demon. It must be stopped. -
@scottjenson @patrick_h_lauke
When Twitter went full Nazi Bar, a lot of writers and journalists I followed there came to Mastodon, where I duly followed them.Within a month, virtually all of them went silent here, but post regularly on Bluesky, where I maintain an account primarily to stake my username.
Since posting on two or more sites is a cut&paste exercise, I don't understand their behavior at all.
When broadcast media was invented, the only way to know if people were listening, then watching, was by sampling surveys.
Now, it's follower counts, or god forbid, boosts and likes. I do *read* print columnists whose opinions I don't like, and I often skip reading ones I do like if the topic holds no interest for me.Accordingly, I follow a lot of people here, but get more from the posts *they* boost, from people I don't follow.
So there's really no metric feedback for hundreds of posts I read every week, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be publishing here.
I do often boost items I like, but receive virtually no feedback from my small population of followers, whose change in numbers I don't track, but assume if they're still following me, they appreciate, or at least don't hate what I boost. My own posts are mostly whispers into the void (per the feedback), but that doesn't stop me from making them, and I assume they're glanced at the same as I do with what scrolls through my home feed.
This is why I never follow any journalist on social media. They don't like it? Too bad. It's only RSS for me. @RealGene @scottjenson @patrick_h_lauke
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@xgranade @danirabbit @scottjenson
Exactly. AI harms marginalized and protected classes the most, including the environment and life itself. It’s not unreasonable to decide to not invite death to dine with us. It is poisoning the food.
It is literally a life or death decision people are making for the world to suffer or survive under. People need to take responsibility and have consequences for their carelessness to community. AI is anti-social in its current form. It must be stopped.@JoBlakely @xgranade @danirabbit @scottjenson
Scott, it seems like you are making yourself crystal clear.
Having values is not an "ideological purity test". Attacking having values as "ideological purity test" is itself a value -- a fascist one.
Do we need to make Fedi a safe place for vitamin hucksters? For horrible cults?
Do you understand the idea that some things are *toxic* to communities?
https://webcomicname.com/post/185588404109 , over and over again.
No one owES fascists a platform.
Again...
NO ONE OWES FASCISTS A PLATFORM.
This is the only place that Gates and Musks lackies aren't running. We like this way.
I know there's a lot of discussion of badjacketing and that discussion is valid, but people are often right when calling this out, and groups often get it right, and at this point, it's pretty blatant, even if you personally cannot see it.
If you feel more comfortable on Bluesky otoh, please feel free to step off.
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@Jakenke @xgranade @danirabbit @scottjenson take a look at one version that it could be used for Buckminster Fuller’s World Game - a concept for resource and energy management.
I just posted on an example. But until their data is created and assessed ethically, wholistic, with regard to its impact, then it’s not worth the cost when gathering competent people together is far superior and effective l@JoBlakely @xgranade @danirabbit @scottjenson
I agree with you in theory, I wish all the nations of the world could all just get together and cooperate on mutually beneficial solutions. It’s the obvious rational route for everyone. But our best attempt at doing so (COP) has been a near total failure. Ideal solutions are useless without political will.
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@JoBlakely @xgranade @danirabbit @scottjenson
I agree with you in theory, I wish all the nations of the world could all just get together and cooperate on mutually beneficial solutions. It’s the obvious rational route for everyone. But our best attempt at doing so (COP) has been a near total failure. Ideal solutions are useless without political will.
@Jakenke
All theory, no praxis makes castles in the air, illusions & Ponzi schemes, bubbles, and structures without integrity doomed to fail. They lack substance, are all facade. -
@JoBlakely @xgranade @danirabbit @scottjenson
Scott, it seems like you are making yourself crystal clear.
Having values is not an "ideological purity test". Attacking having values as "ideological purity test" is itself a value -- a fascist one.
Do we need to make Fedi a safe place for vitamin hucksters? For horrible cults?
Do you understand the idea that some things are *toxic* to communities?
https://webcomicname.com/post/185588404109 , over and over again.
No one owES fascists a platform.
Again...
NO ONE OWES FASCISTS A PLATFORM.
This is the only place that Gates and Musks lackies aren't running. We like this way.
I know there's a lot of discussion of badjacketing and that discussion is valid, but people are often right when calling this out, and groups often get it right, and at this point, it's pretty blatant, even if you personally cannot see it.
If you feel more comfortable on Bluesky otoh, please feel free to step off.@scrottie
Also, no one is denying anyone the right to set up their own cryptofascist or ai-shilling server. Just no-one can be forced to federate with it. There is free speech, but listening is also optional
@JoBlakely @xgranade @danirabbit @scottjenson -
@scottjenson @dalias @pmdj Scott - thanks for initiating this conversation, it's been interesting to follow and reading/understanding everyone elses viewpoint.
I think you're under-estimating the culture of this place and what drives people here. People have specifically chosen Mastodon precisely because it's not the other places. I'm here because I'm tired of low-quality click-engagement articles/links and actually want to engage with 'real' humans who are here because they want to be here and not because they're trying to sell me something (even if that's only a clickthrough).
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@codinghorror You're absolutely correct. Part of my method (which I'm fairly transparent about) is that I make these provocations just to test the waters, see what people say, and how the conversation flows. It's basically research for the blog post.
I've gotten some extremely thoughtful comments that have made me rethink several of my original points.
I've even been accused of "baiting" some people which isn't entirely unfair either. It's helpful to 'poke the bear' occassionally
@scottjenson @codinghorror So when you compared your struggle to the struggle of POC you were baiting on purpose to poke the bear.
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Thank you both. But lets be clear, I didn't do a good job setting up my argument, it was confusing and unclear. I have to own that. My frustration was that I tried to correct the record and just continued to get yelled at.
@scottjenson @kcarruthers @CptSuperlative @RealGene Which Is good right?
It is a clear indication of "engagement" from Fediverse users.
Something you suggested (that other people thought) was lacking?
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@AccordingtoWouter @bp @scottjenson
You responded to a post from a person, then that person disagrees with you. They want to argue with you, but they're not good at arguing. Instead, they see the German flag in your display name and they have an Israeli flag in their display name, so they make gross generalizations about you, then bring race, ethnicity, & religion into an argument where it doesn't belong.@sloanlance @bp @scottjenson the fun thing is: it is even not the German flag
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@scottjenson I do not want mastodon to become more amicable to right wing ideas. The more hostile this place is to Nazis and AI and the manosphere etc the safer it is for people like me. See the parable of the Nazi bar etc. This is an inherent concept to queer spaces. You cannot make a space safe that welcomes both sheep and wolves. Keeping the wolves out is a feature not a flaw
@danirabbit @scottjenson you are asking for an echo chamber. You are asking for this roundly hated bullshit that is being violently imposed on us to be prioritized by the individual poor bastards - like myself - running elephant network instances in the same manner as it is on fascist shitholes like Twitter
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Is #mastodon becoming an echo chamber? This post from @carnage4life has me questioning our community. The Mastodon team is finally getting some traction, the product improvements are increasing, The #UX is improving, yet people posting on multiple platforms are making comments like this. It's confusing.
I *know* people here don't want this to be a classic social media-clone but we'd *like* journalists to be here right? They aren't coming with examples like this!
@scottjenson @carnage4life if I pretend I can unpack everyone's brains lol I think the problem with a take like this is that two people doing basically the same thing might have wildly different experiences on Mastodon. Maybe because of the tech, federation, time of posts, reach, luck, who knows. Partially, I also feel like it's because here no one is trying to "social media" the "right way" if that makes sense. On other platforms there is a lot more conformity as people try to fit in and get followers and be popular getting likes etc. here people don't care as much?
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@scottjenson @dalias @pmdj I dunno who's in your bubble, very few of the fedizens I follow are old white guys.
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@danirabbit @scottjenson you are asking for an echo chamber. You are asking for this roundly hated bullshit that is being violently imposed on us to be prioritized by the individual poor bastards - like myself - running elephant network instances in the same manner as it is on fascist shitholes like Twitter
@danirabbit @scottjenson you are demanding your ideology to be prioritized at the expense of everyone else
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As this conversation is spiraling a bit I want to make a few things clear:
1. I'd like Mastodon to be MORE inclusive and bring in more voices
2. Some people don't seem to want that
3. This is core problem to solve: How do we let more in, but not "pollute" your feed?
4. The solution is NOT "gatekeeping", revelling in the fact that AI journalists aren't welcome
5. This is the same reason we lost "Black Twitter" when it came over in 2022Yes, a lot of you don't want AI posts in your feed (or pick any other topic) but the solution isn't to keep "AI People" from joining Mastodon, any more than it is keeping marginalized communities off of Mastodon.
@scottjenson The "problem" is that e.g. AI enthusiasts, right-wing loons, fascists, &c. &c. fundamentally just aren't very popular people. In polite society they end up shutting up. It's the algorithms on commercial sites that make them seem popular (aka divisive and engagement-generating). If you judge mastodon against these engagement-generating sites then you're judging against a skewed idea of what "normal" looks like.
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@nikclayton I'm not arguing with that logic. I'm not saying you HAVE to like him. I'm trying to understand why people can't just ignore him.
@scottjenson @nikclayton I don’t see how you reached the conclusion that people aren’t ALSO ignoring him? Or are you saying you wish more people ignored him instead of replying? If so, I don’t see how that would be better for anyone.
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@scottjenson @Gargron why do you feel that AI as a product has any special "too important to fail" property such that people who choose to invest in it are entitled to systemic protections that guarantee their product visibility and success in a place where most people do not want it? This is not gatekeeping a person, this is choosing not to buy a product. I like Obasanjo's writing just fine but making articles about a topic that I do not want to read is his choice as a professional.
@elrohir @scottjenson @Gargron
I am a tech journalist, a tech writer and a software developer. Sometimes I work with AI stuff, sometimes I write about it on fedi. Reactions have been mixed, mostly on the negative side. I understand why, because AI cannot simply be seen as a neutral tech. There's too much around it, and honest tech and journalism people cannot - and should not - pretend otherwise. It's multidimensional chess.
Most people are against all things AI on fedi, yes - at least on the fedi I know. I see this as freedom of thinking and expression, provided it does not become digital violence and harassment. But I see nothing stopping anyone who wants to write about AI. I suppose that there are enough people tooting about AI to make conversations, on some instances more than on others.
But people have the right to dislike and actively avoid (block) those conversations. Ultimately, I think people have the right to have their own safe digital spaces. Avoiding specific stuff is a part of this safety.
On the other hand, if the issue here is "tech people want to talk about their favourite stuff but do not get the same traction as on [whatever]", I personally - very personally - think it's the same issue we've been talking about from Masto Day 1. Here it's different: it's about conversations, not algorithmically growing audiences. But that's why we're here, in the end.
That said, peace and love y'all. We agree to disagree and so on. -
@scottjenson I also want to be clear, as I'm sure you've had a Bad Time over this - I'm not outraged; you're trying to improve things. You have very little to do with any historic issues of Mastodon's development, nor is history a thing we can change. I know you want well; we all do.
What I *am* trying to do is focus on what is *actually* a problem & how that is addressable. Providing moderation tools that have long been requested - precisely *because* they benefit everyone.
@mattwilcox
That was a very helpful reply thank you. Let's start with obvious agreements: we need more moderator tools. Could not agree more. They can't come fast enough.As to my second bullet point, I'm not putting words in peoples mouths. I'm a bit tired to collect the URLs by I got several comments that literally said "We don't want more tolerance" which was shocking to me. I truly hope they are in the minority.
I likely shouldn't have leaned on AI, it's just too radioactive a topic. But it did show off the pure vehemence (there are some scary people out there) The more mild form was "yeah, we want tolerance for X, but Y can fuck right off to hell" which isn't exact tolerance...
In the end, I'll be clear, I fucked this up. I had a noble idea and I said it in a vague radioactive way where the reactions actually proved my points but I certainly didn't win any hearts. I have to own that.
@sfabel -
@scottjenson It would help if you answer the question what precisely is for your bigger tent? What consists more welcoming Mastodon? Because your first post suggest boosts, and favorite. Then you mention people writing more or less "I don't want you here" (most people here don't do this anyway). So what do you really want? Specifics, please.
@szczurtorebkowy My point was vague I'll admit. Thank you for asking. My initial point was more curiosity. Why is it that this person (whatever their topic) was getting so much more traction elsewhere?
Clearly masto HATES AI (in any form). I got caught in the crossfire and people seemed to think I wanted people to AI more (no) or that some people deserved "engagement" or more interaction (again no)
I've talked to so many people that tried Mastodon and left, mostly due to reply guys getting in the face. It's a problem. There is a also very complex problem the Black Twitter migration and how they didn't feel safe.
So I'm "kicking the tires" trying to understand where this unwelcomeness is coming from, what form it takes. Do people actively chase AI people? I doubt it. Most people are live and let live. But so many people came out in my replies and said "throw the bastards out" I was a bit shocked.
The topic grew as the intolerance became blatent.
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@elrohir @scottjenson @Gargron
I am a tech journalist, a tech writer and a software developer. Sometimes I work with AI stuff, sometimes I write about it on fedi. Reactions have been mixed, mostly on the negative side. I understand why, because AI cannot simply be seen as a neutral tech. There's too much around it, and honest tech and journalism people cannot - and should not - pretend otherwise. It's multidimensional chess.
Most people are against all things AI on fedi, yes - at least on the fedi I know. I see this as freedom of thinking and expression, provided it does not become digital violence and harassment. But I see nothing stopping anyone who wants to write about AI. I suppose that there are enough people tooting about AI to make conversations, on some instances more than on others.
But people have the right to dislike and actively avoid (block) those conversations. Ultimately, I think people have the right to have their own safe digital spaces. Avoiding specific stuff is a part of this safety.
On the other hand, if the issue here is "tech people want to talk about their favourite stuff but do not get the same traction as on [whatever]", I personally - very personally - think it's the same issue we've been talking about from Masto Day 1. Here it's different: it's about conversations, not algorithmically growing audiences. But that's why we're here, in the end.
That said, peace and love y'all. We agree to disagree and so on.
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