Is #mastodon becoming an echo chamber?
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@davey_cakes @scottjenson Agreed. I'm reminded of a science journalist who turns up about once a year to post one-way toots for a few days before disappearing again. Last time, she complained that she was 'screaming into a void'. Literally hundreds of people replied from 'the void', welcoming her. She responded to 0 of them. 2000 people follow her. She follows 0. She's never replied, boosted or engaged with anyone. Fediverse held the gate wide open for her, but she just shouted at us and left.
@CiaraNi @davey_cakes @scottjenson people who are severely sickened by corporate engagement-farming UX when they show up here will either detox or self-select out. and while it's probably laudable to maximize the proportion who detox (and how quickly they do it), this is actually fine. the ones who cling to an interaction style which grew to fit dark patterns are often pretty unpleasant to interact with.
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@scottjenson @carnage4life I took 70 posts from "Trending" (so not connected to my preferences) on my Mastodon server and analysed them:
Politics(29):
4 Iran war US pol
10 other US pol
4 Swedish pol
3 Israel&Gaza
2 Hungarian pol
1 German pol
1 UK pol
1 oppression in Russia
1 motonormativity
2 other7 funny
6 ai negative (faked polls, cloning artists, ...)
5 personal
4 fedi/mastodon meta commentary
3 personal requests
3 own art
2 remembering the Holocaust
1 tech
1 tech adjacent9 other
@ahltorp @scottjenson @carnage4life the amount of nonstop politics is oppressive, and I'm an American so I have direct context to understand 90% of it. IMO it's a miracle we haven't driven away all non-US English speakers completely.
note that I'm not saying politics aren't important. I'm saying Mastodon Network
users NEVER shut the fuck up about it EVER. I have a filter set for politics, so I can engage or not as I'm able & willing. it contains over 400 terms and it gets a daily workout. -
@rubinjoni Using AI to produce adult content could be termed "Chick rendering" since it's already insulting to women, and it's literally rendering images of them...
@Dtraslerwriting @rubinjoni omg this is what I'll call Grok data centers from now on.
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@django Thank you for the reminder. One of the reasons I'm always so thankful to be on social.coop is that no one on this server has ever treated me like that.
@scottjenson no one on this server (or any) should be treated like that either!
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@scottjenson Threads is Mastodon, so...
@Azuaron @scottjenson wait, threads is mastodon?!?!
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@scottjenson after sleeping on it, I am choosing to respond because I cannot let your narrative go unchallenged, since you speak as a "Product Strategy Advisor to Mastodon Core team". Your intentions are probably good, but the words you chose to publish read a lot like unexamined privilege and a deep misunderstanding of lived reality of many people in this federation:
equating the experience of mass harassment on minorities to "journalists not getting engagement" is a slap in the face to both the victims of harassment and the volunteers (operators, moderators and developers) who keep this federation running. This reads extremely tone deaf and patronizing, and you antagonized a lot of people with that comparison
engagement dynamics being different than on mainstream parasocial platforms is not a bug, it is the main feature! Many (most?) people are here seeking a refuge from the exploitative attention economy and prioritize mutual connections above the parasocial one-way audience management that most journalists have been trained to seek out. I would not say that journalists are not welcome per se, but their usual methods definitely are
your example of "AI journalism" was very poorly chosen and contributed to the polarization. GenAI is NOT a neutral technology: it is the technological arm of an anti-social, parasitic and regressive societal project. This societal project is built on "values" that are the polar opposite of those that most instances in this federation uphold and is destroying countless lives, including those of people who are the rockbed of the Fediverse. Your replies minimizing this harm "because they're not nazis" read at lot like unexamined privilege
"big tent" attitudes are a red flag to many of us, because they usually end with marginalized people being pushed away while "the good gents" look away from the violence. Tolerance is a social contract, and people who promote anti-social views don't benefit from that social contract
The Fediverse is the opposite of an echo chamber! I picked up sewing and tried crochet, learned about insects and wild birds. I learned about the lives of people with chronic pain, several forms of neurodivergence and am following several blind authors. I read 10 thousands pages last year thanks to many book recommendations. It is one of the very few places that still feels human, and you are rubbing against people who fight to defend that.
I recommend you seek out feedback about this thread from several women and think about how you can come back to the conversation with a less antagonistic and tone-deaf attitude. We need people like you, but we don't need the "big tent" attitude you exhibited on this thread.
@xavier pinging @andypiper to take a gander at this thread, as @scottjenson 's self-described (implied?) authority on Mastodon direction might not sit well with - er - Mastodon core.
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@unchartedworlds Thanks for that thoughtful reply. It was a bit of a knee jerk reaction to be honest. I've been talking to LOTS of folks, trying to figure out how to get more people to join the Fediverse and journalists are fairly reluctant to join. If you follow some of the replies to my post there is a healthy "yeah, and we don't WANT you!" feeling.
I'm all for people not wanting to have journalists here but there is a surprising vitriol to let them in at all. I keep hearing over (and over (AND OVER)) that anyone can spin up a server but that's completely missing the point. If people don't want you here, having your own server accomplishes nothing.
My point isn't that anyone should want anything. I'm just surprised people don't want to, you know, let journalists at least TRY to do something here?
My BIG mistake was picking someone in AI, that just set everyone off on the wrong path. I did not want to "push" AI on anyone.
@scottjenson my reaction is similar to @unchartedworlds' ... in fact I'm puzzled by your framing of this whole discussion. Dare isn't a journalist, so what does his experience have to do with whether or not journalists are welcome here? And yes of course somebody like Dare -- a US-based product manager who is well-known for his work at Meta (and before that Microsoft) -- is going to get more engagement on Threads and Bluesky than on Mastodon. What does that have to do with Mastodon being an echo chamber?
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@scottjenson
What part of "literally anyone can start a mastodon or other fediverse server" do you think is so incredibly uninclusive?The mechanism that chased away black people was active racist hate bots posting in their DMs. Do you think "I'm not planning to listen to AI bros" is the same mechanism as "I'm planning to make a botnet to post KKK material at black people"?
@dlakelan those ai brainiacs think they can vibe code anything, so why can't they vibe code their own instance?
also, i'm here for the

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@scottjenson @Gargron “AI people” are not a protected class. It seems much more important that we focus on being a welcoming and inclusive platform for protected classes, particularly actual marginalized communities.
@dgodon @scottjenson @Gargron whoa whoa whoa now. that's ANTI WHITE /s
AI people are special snowflakes that we must nurture
hahahahahahah

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@scottjenson
While I took issue with some of what you said or perhaps just the way you said it, I didn’t mean to attack you if it came across that way at all. I really appreciate your presence here especially as it relates to improving Mastodon!
@flesh @Gargron @adriano -
@scottjenson my reaction is similar to @unchartedworlds' ... in fact I'm puzzled by your framing of this whole discussion. Dare isn't a journalist, so what does his experience have to do with whether or not journalists are welcome here? And yes of course somebody like Dare -- a US-based product manager who is well-known for his work at Meta (and before that Microsoft) -- is going to get more engagement on Threads and Bluesky than on Mastodon. What does that have to do with Mastodon being an echo chamber?
RE: https://social.growyourown.services/@FediFollows/116274521264107379
Besides, there's no attitude against journalists here. There may be against PR shills, but some of my earliest follows from October 2022 are active and doing well. Fedi isn't their exclusive channel, but for many it is the insurance strategy. Hat tip to @molly0xfff on documenting that path and @mike and all of @Flipboard on holding the flag high. The journalists are too many to list here but @FediFollows has a "starter pack" for any niche.
@jdp23 @scottjenson @unchartedworlds -
@neoluddite @deFractal In 2016, I blocked a lot of people over politics. In retrospect, that turned out to have been entirely justified.
But when 2020 and 2022 came around I began facilitating discussions about important events. I had to unblock a bunch of people to do this. I decided it was better to be able engage with the people I didn’t agree with than to not.
(Yes, I recognize this is a form of privilege and not everyone can or should look it that way.)In the long run, people getting divided over deeply held principled beliefs only helps those who have no principles at all.
@marshray @neoluddite @deFractal
Nah. That's just normalizing horrible people. That's all they want. They want to hurt others and still be respected. Rub in. That's all. -
@Gargron @scottjenson don’t we need to know the position of the puppy killer party?
Because it keeps needing to be said: puppy killers are bad. White Supremacy is bad. We don't need to see their side and have a debate. We had a debate. It was called World War II.
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That is the exact opposite of what I said. I'm saying the fediverse gives you the tools to follow/block/filter/ to your hearts content to create the space you want.
What is corrosive is people ACTIVELY going after people they don't agree with. Just look at the replies to my post to get small sample.
My point was, I thought, very simple, and very reasonable: we should be more welcoming of more opinions. If you don't like them, then don't follow them. That should be the fedi-way. To be clear, I'm NOT endorsing AI, it just used it as an example.
Instead I'm living the very point I was trying to make. I've been told to leave, called a racist, and had ad hominem attacks leveled at me.
Now to be fair, my original post was poorly worded. I've owned that
https://social.coop/@scottjenson/116358195717244835@scottjenson "people ACTIVELY going after people they don't agree with. Just look at the replies to my post to get small sample."
You're just unable to deal with criticism, sorry.
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@Gargron That is a personal choice and one which I totally respect. But I do think Mastodon should be big enough, and open enough, to allow an "AI community" to form, even thrive.
Too many people in my replies don't seem to agree with that.
@scottjenson @Gargron off is the general direction in which you should fuck with your "let's build an AI niche" bullshit.
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@bp @scottjenson @AccordingtoWouter
I'm willing to bet you're very wrong about that.@sloanlance @scottjenson @AccordingtoWouter is that because "lived experience" isn't something Jews have access to? Or because you ancestral memory includes pogroms and expulsions, in additions to judenschweinen and blood libels?
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@sloanlance @scottjenson @AccordingtoWouter is that because "lived experience" isn't something Jews have access to? Or because you ancestral memory includes pogroms and expulsions, in additions to judenschweinen and blood libels?
@bp @scottjenson @sloanlance With all due respect, I don’t understand what Jews have to do with a discussion about AI tech journalists.
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Is #mastodon becoming an echo chamber? This post from @carnage4life has me questioning our community. The Mastodon team is finally getting some traction, the product improvements are increasing, The #UX is improving, yet people posting on multiple platforms are making comments like this. It's confusing.
I *know* people here don't want this to be a classic social media-clone but we'd *like* journalists to be here right? They aren't coming with examples like this!

@scottjenson I’ve been following this today, and was thinking that it would be really helped by community blocking that people can subscribe to. (Composable blocking, I think Mekka calls it?)
I suspect if groups of people could say, “we collectively are A People that want none of This Topic, and we trust our people to remove it”, there’d be a lot less yelling at people to stop talking about That Topic. It would just be invisible to most.
You can do that via a server today of course, but that’s a super blunt tool. It’s not post-specific, and it’s a handful of mods trying to do it for all topics for all their users.
Versus saying “If any of these 40 people tags someone’s post as NoAltText, I just won’t see it”. Or possibly a higher threshold with something like “if 30% of these people said it’s AIHype, I’ll skip”.
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@progressivecat @Helenisenough @CiaraNi That is entirely correct! I totally agree with you. Where we differ is what we do about it.
Me? I just ignore them, block them, don't boost them, etc. What I don't do is get into their face and tell them "Hey, you're doing it wrong". That is a large amount of privilege to think a) they want advice or b) I'm the hero that needs to correct it.
@scottjenson @progressivecat @CiaraNi
I don't get in their face. I'm just sharing my response to posts without alt text. That post is not for me. It might be for someone else.
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@scottjenson I do not want mastodon to become more amicable to right wing ideas. The more hostile this place is to Nazis and AI and the manosphere etc the safer it is for people like me. See the parable of the Nazi bar etc. This is an inherent concept to queer spaces. You cannot make a space safe that welcomes both sheep and wolves. Keeping the wolves out is a feature not a flaw
@danirabbit @scottjenson This. I do not think it's even slightly an exaggeration to say that AI is, in its present and marketed form, fascist. It is good when fascists aren't allowed in the room, actually.
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For what it's worth, I've apologized for the inappropriate comparison.