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  4. Is #mastodon becoming an echo chamber?

Is #mastodon becoming an echo chamber?

Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved Fediverse
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  • CiaraC Ciara

    @davey_cakes @scottjenson Agreed. I'm reminded of a science journalist who turns up about once a year to post one-way toots for a few days before disappearing again. Last time, she complained that she was 'screaming into a void'. Literally hundreds of people replied from 'the void', welcoming her. She responded to 0 of them. 2000 people follow her. She follows 0. She's never replied, boosted or engaged with anyone. Fediverse held the gate wide open for her, but she just shouted at us and left.

    deutrinoD This user is from outside of this forum
    deutrinoD This user is from outside of this forum
    deutrino
    wrote last edited by
    #881

    @CiaraNi @davey_cakes @scottjenson people who are severely sickened by corporate engagement-farming UX when they show up here will either detox or self-select out. and while it's probably laudable to maximize the proportion who detox (and how quickly they do it), this is actually fine. the ones who cling to an interaction style which grew to fit dark patterns are often pretty unpleasant to interact with.

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    • Magnus AhltorpA Magnus Ahltorp

      @scottjenson @carnage4life I took 70 posts from "Trending" (so not connected to my preferences) on my Mastodon server and analysed them:

      Politics(29):
      4 Iran war US pol
      10 other US pol
      4 Swedish pol
      3 Israel&Gaza
      2 Hungarian pol
      1 German pol
      1 UK pol
      1 oppression in Russia
      1 motonormativity
      2 other

      7 funny
      6 ai negative (faked polls, cloning artists, ...)
      5 personal
      4 fedi/mastodon meta commentary
      3 personal requests
      3 own art
      2 remembering the Holocaust
      1 tech
      1 tech adjacent

      9 other

      deutrinoD This user is from outside of this forum
      deutrinoD This user is from outside of this forum
      deutrino
      wrote last edited by
      #882

      @ahltorp @scottjenson @carnage4life the amount of nonstop politics is oppressive, and I'm an American so I have direct context to understand 90% of it. IMO it's a miracle we haven't driven away all non-US English speakers completely.

      note that I'm not saying politics aren't important. I'm saying Mastodon Network™ users NEVER shut the fuck up about it EVER. I have a filter set for politics, so I can engage or not as I'm able & willing. it contains over 400 terms and it gets a daily workout.

      Magnus AhltorpA 1 Reply Last reply
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      • DTrasler WritingD DTrasler Writing

        @rubinjoni Using AI to produce adult content could be termed "Chick rendering" since it's already insulting to women, and it's literally rendering images of them...

        Juno JoveJ This user is from outside of this forum
        Juno JoveJ This user is from outside of this forum
        Juno Jove
        wrote last edited by
        #883

        @Dtraslerwriting @rubinjoni omg this is what I'll call Grok data centers from now on.

        1 Reply Last reply
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        • Scott JensonS Scott Jenson

          @django Thank you for the reminder. One of the reasons I'm always so thankful to be on social.coop is that no one on this server has ever treated me like that.

          djangoD This user is from outside of this forum
          djangoD This user is from outside of this forum
          django
          wrote last edited by
          #884

          @scottjenson no one on this server (or any) should be treated like that either!

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          • AzuaronA Azuaron

            @scottjenson Threads is Mastodon, so...

            Juno JoveJ This user is from outside of this forum
            Juno JoveJ This user is from outside of this forum
            Juno Jove
            wrote last edited by
            #885

            @Azuaron @scottjenson wait, threads is mastodon?!?!

            AzuaronA noodlejetski :verified_gay:N 2 Replies Last reply
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            • XavierX Xavier

              @scottjenson after sleeping on it, I am choosing to respond because I cannot let your narrative go unchallenged, since you speak as a "Product Strategy Advisor to Mastodon Core team". Your intentions are probably good, but the words you chose to publish read a lot like unexamined privilege and a deep misunderstanding of lived reality of many people in this federation:

              • equating the experience of mass harassment on minorities to "journalists not getting engagement" is a slap in the face to both the victims of harassment and the volunteers (operators, moderators and developers) who keep this federation running. This reads extremely tone deaf and patronizing, and you antagonized a lot of people with that comparison

              • engagement dynamics being different than on mainstream parasocial platforms is not a bug, it is the main feature! Many (most?) people are here seeking a refuge from the exploitative attention economy and prioritize mutual connections above the parasocial one-way audience management that most journalists have been trained to seek out. I would not say that journalists are not welcome per se, but their usual methods definitely are

              • your example of "AI journalism" was very poorly chosen and contributed to the polarization. GenAI is NOT a neutral technology: it is the technological arm of an anti-social, parasitic and regressive societal project. This societal project is built on "values" that are the polar opposite of those that most instances in this federation uphold and is destroying countless lives, including those of people who are the rockbed of the Fediverse. Your replies minimizing this harm "because they're not nazis" read at lot like unexamined privilege

              • "big tent" attitudes are a red flag to many of us, because they usually end with marginalized people being pushed away while "the good gents" look away from the violence. Tolerance is a social contract, and people who promote anti-social views don't benefit from that social contract

              The Fediverse is the opposite of an echo chamber! I picked up sewing and tried crochet, learned about insects and wild birds. I learned about the lives of people with chronic pain, several forms of neurodivergence and am following several blind authors. I read 10 thousands pages last year thanks to many book recommendations. It is one of the very few places that still feels human, and you are rubbing against people who fight to defend that.

              I recommend you seek out feedback about this thread from several women and think about how you can come back to the conversation with a less antagonistic and tone-deaf attitude. We need people like you, but we don't need the "big tent" attitude you exhibited on this thread.

              'Pa :vim:P This user is from outside of this forum
              'Pa :vim:P This user is from outside of this forum
              'Pa :vim:
              wrote last edited by
              #886

              @xavier pinging @andypiper to take a gander at this thread, as @scottjenson 's self-described (implied?) authority on Mastodon direction might not sit well with - er - Mastodon core.

              hannah aubryH 1 Reply Last reply
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              • Scott JensonS Scott Jenson

                @unchartedworlds Thanks for that thoughtful reply. It was a bit of a knee jerk reaction to be honest. I've been talking to LOTS of folks, trying to figure out how to get more people to join the Fediverse and journalists are fairly reluctant to join. If you follow some of the replies to my post there is a healthy "yeah, and we don't WANT you!" feeling.

                I'm all for people not wanting to have journalists here but there is a surprising vitriol to let them in at all. I keep hearing over (and over (AND OVER)) that anyone can spin up a server but that's completely missing the point. If people don't want you here, having your own server accomplishes nothing.

                My point isn't that anyone should want anything. I'm just surprised people don't want to, you know, let journalists at least TRY to do something here?

                My BIG mistake was picking someone in AI, that just set everyone off on the wrong path. I did not want to "push" AI on anyone.

                JonJ This user is from outside of this forum
                JonJ This user is from outside of this forum
                Jon
                wrote last edited by
                #887

                @scottjenson my reaction is similar to @unchartedworlds' ... in fact I'm puzzled by your framing of this whole discussion. Dare isn't a journalist, so what does his experience have to do with whether or not journalists are welcome here? And yes of course somebody like Dare -- a US-based product manager who is well-known for his work at Meta (and before that Microsoft) -- is going to get more engagement on Threads and Bluesky than on Mastodon. What does that have to do with Mastodon being an echo chamber?

                Osma A 🇫🇮🇺🇦O 1 Reply Last reply
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                • Daniel LakelandD Daniel Lakeland

                  @scottjenson
                  What part of "literally anyone can start a mastodon or other fediverse server" do you think is so incredibly uninclusive?

                  The mechanism that chased away black people was active racist hate bots posting in their DMs. Do you think "I'm not planning to listen to AI bros" is the same mechanism as "I'm planning to make a botnet to post KKK material at black people"?

                  @mattwilcox @Gargron

                  tootbruteT This user is from outside of this forum
                  tootbruteT This user is from outside of this forum
                  tootbrute
                  wrote last edited by
                  #888

                  @dlakelan those ai brainiacs think they can vibe code anything, so why can't they vibe code their own instance?

                  also, i'm here for the

                  @scottjenson @mattwilcox @Gargron

                  1 Reply Last reply
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                  • DemianD Demian

                    @scottjenson @Gargron “AI people” are not a protected class. It seems much more important that we focus on being a welcoming and inclusive platform for protected classes, particularly actual marginalized communities.

                    tootbruteT This user is from outside of this forum
                    tootbruteT This user is from outside of this forum
                    tootbrute
                    wrote last edited by
                    #889

                    @dgodon @scottjenson @Gargron whoa whoa whoa now. that's ANTI WHITE /s

                    AI people are special snowflakes that we must nurture

                    hahahahahahah

                    1 Reply Last reply
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                    • Scott JensonS Scott Jenson

                      @flesh @dgodon @Gargron @adriano

                      uh, yeah, slightly more than one 😉 For what it's worth, I've apologized for the inappropriate comparison.

                      DemianD This user is from outside of this forum
                      DemianD This user is from outside of this forum
                      Demian
                      wrote last edited by
                      #890

                      @scottjenson
                      While I took issue with some of what you said or perhaps just the way you said it, I didn’t mean to attack you if it came across that way at all. I really appreciate your presence here especially as it relates to improving Mastodon!
                      @flesh @Gargron @adriano

                      Scott JensonS 1 Reply Last reply
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                      • JonJ Jon

                        @scottjenson my reaction is similar to @unchartedworlds' ... in fact I'm puzzled by your framing of this whole discussion. Dare isn't a journalist, so what does his experience have to do with whether or not journalists are welcome here? And yes of course somebody like Dare -- a US-based product manager who is well-known for his work at Meta (and before that Microsoft) -- is going to get more engagement on Threads and Bluesky than on Mastodon. What does that have to do with Mastodon being an echo chamber?

                        Osma A 🇫🇮🇺🇦O This user is from outside of this forum
                        Osma A 🇫🇮🇺🇦O This user is from outside of this forum
                        Osma A 🇫🇮🇺🇦
                        wrote last edited by
                        #891

                        RE: https://social.growyourown.services/@FediFollows/116274521264107379

                        Besides, there's no attitude against journalists here. There may be against PR shills, but some of my earliest follows from October 2022 are active and doing well. Fedi isn't their exclusive channel, but for many it is the insurance strategy. Hat tip to @molly0xfff on documenting that path and @mike and all of @Flipboard on holding the flag high. The journalists are too many to list here but @FediFollows has a "starter pack" for any niche.
                        @jdp23 @scottjenson @unchartedworlds

                        FediFollows 🎅F 1 Reply Last reply
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                        • Marsh RayM Marsh Ray

                          @neoluddite @deFractal In 2016, I blocked a lot of people over politics. In retrospect, that turned out to have been entirely justified.

                          But when 2020 and 2022 came around I began facilitating discussions about important events. I had to unblock a bunch of people to do this. I decided it was better to be able engage with the people I didn’t agree with than to not.
                          (Yes, I recognize this is a form of privilege and not everyone can or should look it that way.)

                          In the long run, people getting divided over deeply held principled beliefs only helps those who have no principles at all.

                          Display NameA This user is from outside of this forum
                          Display NameA This user is from outside of this forum
                          Display Name
                          wrote last edited by
                          #892

                          @marshray @neoluddite @deFractal
                          Nah. That's just normalizing horrible people. That's all they want. They want to hurt others and still be respected. Rub in. That's all.

                          Marsh RayM 1 Reply Last reply
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                          • Kierkethumbs up convincinglyK Kierkethumbs up convincingly

                            @Gargron @scottjenson don’t we need to know the position of the puppy killer party?

                            paulA This user is from outside of this forum
                            paulA This user is from outside of this forum
                            paul
                            wrote last edited by
                            #893

                            @Kierkegaanks

                            Because it keeps needing to be said: puppy killers are bad. White Supremacy is bad. We don't need to see their side and have a debate. We had a debate. It was called World War II.

                            1 Reply Last reply
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                            • Scott JensonS Scott Jenson

                              @pmdj @dalias

                              That is the exact opposite of what I said. I'm saying the fediverse gives you the tools to follow/block/filter/ to your hearts content to create the space you want.

                              What is corrosive is people ACTIVELY going after people they don't agree with. Just look at the replies to my post to get small sample.

                              My point was, I thought, very simple, and very reasonable: we should be more welcoming of more opinions. If you don't like them, then don't follow them. That should be the fedi-way. To be clear, I'm NOT endorsing AI, it just used it as an example.

                              Instead I'm living the very point I was trying to make. I've been told to leave, called a racist, and had ad hominem attacks leveled at me.

                              Now to be fair, my original post was poorly worded. I've owned that
                              https://social.coop/@scottjenson/116358195717244835

                              funbaker; Je suis AntifaF This user is from outside of this forum
                              funbaker; Je suis AntifaF This user is from outside of this forum
                              funbaker; Je suis Antifa
                              wrote last edited by
                              #894

                              @scottjenson "people ACTIVELY going after people they don't agree with. Just look at the replies to my post to get small sample."

                              You're just unable to deal with criticism, sorry.

                              @pmdj @dalias

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                              • Scott JensonS Scott Jenson

                                @Gargron That is a personal choice and one which I totally respect. But I do think Mastodon should be big enough, and open enough, to allow an "AI community" to form, even thrive.

                                Too many people in my replies don't seem to agree with that.

                                DaveL This user is from outside of this forum
                                DaveL This user is from outside of this forum
                                Dave
                                wrote last edited by
                                #895

                                @scottjenson @Gargron off is the general direction in which you should fuck with your "let's build an AI niche" bullshit.

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                                • Mr. Lance E Sloan (IRL) 👤S Mr. Lance E Sloan (IRL) 👤

                                  @bp @scottjenson @AccordingtoWouter
                                  I'm willing to bet you're very wrong about that.

                                  Benny Powers 🇮🇱🦁B This user is from outside of this forum
                                  Benny Powers 🇮🇱🦁B This user is from outside of this forum
                                  Benny Powers 🇮🇱🦁
                                  wrote last edited by
                                  #896

                                  @sloanlance @scottjenson @AccordingtoWouter is that because "lived experience" isn't something Jews have access to? Or because you ancestral memory includes pogroms and expulsions, in additions to judenschweinen and blood libels?

                                  Wouter 🇳🇱🇧🇷🇧🇪A Mr. Lance E Sloan (IRL) 👤S 2 Replies Last reply
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                                  • Benny Powers 🇮🇱🦁B Benny Powers 🇮🇱🦁

                                    @sloanlance @scottjenson @AccordingtoWouter is that because "lived experience" isn't something Jews have access to? Or because you ancestral memory includes pogroms and expulsions, in additions to judenschweinen and blood libels?

                                    Wouter 🇳🇱🇧🇷🇧🇪A This user is from outside of this forum
                                    Wouter 🇳🇱🇧🇷🇧🇪A This user is from outside of this forum
                                    Wouter 🇳🇱🇧🇷🇧🇪
                                    wrote last edited by
                                    #897

                                    @bp @scottjenson @sloanlance With all due respect, I don’t understand what Jews have to do with a discussion about AI tech journalists.

                                    Mr. Lance E Sloan (IRL) 👤S 1 Reply Last reply
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                                    • Scott JensonS Scott Jenson

                                      Is #mastodon becoming an echo chamber? This post from @carnage4life has me questioning our community. The Mastodon team is finally getting some traction, the product improvements are increasing, The #UX is improving, yet people posting on multiple platforms are making comments like this. It's confusing.

                                      I *know* people here don't want this to be a classic social media-clone but we'd *like* journalists to be here right? They aren't coming with examples like this!

                                      Link Preview Image
                                      JonobieJ This user is from outside of this forum
                                      JonobieJ This user is from outside of this forum
                                      Jonobie
                                      wrote last edited by
                                      #898

                                      @scottjenson I’ve been following this today, and was thinking that it would be really helped by community blocking that people can subscribe to. (Composable blocking, I think Mekka calls it?)

                                      I suspect if groups of people could say, “we collectively are A People that want none of This Topic, and we trust our people to remove it”, there’d be a lot less yelling at people to stop talking about That Topic. It would just be invisible to most.

                                      You can do that via a server today of course, but that’s a super blunt tool. It’s not post-specific, and it’s a handful of mods trying to do it for all topics for all their users.

                                      Versus saying “If any of these 40 people tags someone’s post as NoAltText, I just won’t see it”. Or possibly a higher threshold with something like “if 30% of these people said it’s AIHype, I’ll skip”.

                                      1 Reply Last reply
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                                      • Scott JensonS Scott Jenson

                                        @progressivecat @Helenisenough @CiaraNi That is entirely correct! I totally agree with you. Where we differ is what we do about it.

                                        Me? I just ignore them, block them, don't boost them, etc. What I don't do is get into their face and tell them "Hey, you're doing it wrong". That is a large amount of privilege to think a) they want advice or b) I'm the hero that needs to correct it.

                                        HelenisenoughH This user is from outside of this forum
                                        HelenisenoughH This user is from outside of this forum
                                        Helenisenough
                                        wrote last edited by
                                        #899

                                        @scottjenson @progressivecat @CiaraNi

                                        I don't get in their face. I'm just sharing my response to posts without alt text. That post is not for me. It might be for someone else.

                                        E 1 Reply Last reply
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                                        • Danielle ForéD Danielle Foré

                                          @scottjenson I do not want mastodon to become more amicable to right wing ideas. The more hostile this place is to Nazis and AI and the manosphere etc the safer it is for people like me. See the parable of the Nazi bar etc. This is an inherent concept to queer spaces. You cannot make a space safe that welcomes both sheep and wolves. Keeping the wolves out is a feature not a flaw

                                          Cassandra is only carbon nowX This user is from outside of this forum
                                          Cassandra is only carbon nowX This user is from outside of this forum
                                          Cassandra is only carbon now
                                          wrote last edited by
                                          #900

                                          @danirabbit @scottjenson This. I do not think it's even slightly an exaggeration to say that AI is, in its present and marketed form, fascist. It is good when fascists aren't allowed in the room, actually.

                                          Jo - pièce de résistanceJ Sue Briccay :flag_asexual:E 2 Replies Last reply
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