Every now and then people break into a fight on here over fediverse vs the Atmosphere (or Bluesky, as its main representative).

@Heliograph Oh I think you're thinking of @AltTextHealthCheck?

Different account from a different @stefan@gardenstate.social!

@quillmatiq Yeah, this is the main reason I still keep my eye on what's happening around ATProto. Work around Blacksky has been inspiring.

I think a lot of people on here miss that people who are on Bluesky also don't want Bluesky, the company, to be in control, and they've been building tools to wrestle it back.

I still root for the fediverse the most, but maybe there will just be a point when it's much easier to run your own mini-ATProto stack before fediverse shakes off its image of a tiny, toxic, unwelcoming community.

@stefan @quillmatiq

But what if only one is likely to win and one is designed such that lots of power will accumulate to whoever runs one piece of the infrastructure best because of how the protocol works? then these arguments right now really matter. and it's not about the companies/orgs that currently exist but actually which type of protocol is most widely adopted.

of course I'm annoying and I'm sorry and I might be wrong but what do you do if you think you've fairly thought it through?

@stefan @quillmatiq

But what if only one is likely to win and one is designed such that lots of power will accumulate to whoever runs one piece of the infrastructure best because of how the protocol works? then these arguments right now really matter. and it's not about the companies/orgs that currently exist but actually which type of protocol is most widely adopted.

of course I'm annoying and I'm sorry and I might be wrong but what do you do if you think you've fairly thought it through?

@wjmaggos

Blacksky went from a custom feed to running a full ATProto stack. More will likely follow, and eventually there might even be enough independent communities that don't rely on Bluesky's infrastructure, so that would solve that problem.

@quillmatiq

@stefan @quillmatiq

and there are alternative search engines to Google too. that doesn't change the power they have in spaces built on open protocols. bluesky might be yahoo. but we can already see how being the default app view matters re AT in a way that isn't true with AP.

@wjmaggos

Right. But the bottom line is, not enough people care. And we're not going to reason and argue our way out of that.

People want safe, inviting communities, where they can have a good time.

We just need to get better at meeting those needs.

@quillmatiq

@stefan @quillmatiq

This is big.

People now NEED to be on Facebook etc to keep up with things like school events. I call that "social networking". But "social media" is still seen as entertainment. A good time but superfluous.

I don't think most people will care about social media decentralization until they think it matters in their lives. How people mis/understand the world. Until they recognize harms as due to the byproducts of concentration. As everybody on fedi helping to fix that.

@wjmaggos Right, but so are people working on ATProto.

Going back to what I said in the post you replied to:

"I think a lot of people on here miss that people who are on Bluesky also don't want Bluesky, the company, to be in control, and they've been building tools to wrestle it back."

So, again, we might actually see more independent communities on ATProto before the fediverse becomes safe and inviting. Atmosphere will then be a funner, safer place for everyone, and also more meaningfully decentralized.

@quillmatiq

@stefan @quillmatiq

fedi is currently safe and inviting. I see it like using the early web when people were on AOL. yeah it will get easier and should but to some degree, people also had to learn some stuff like URLs.

decentralizing AT is great but it's still growing a protocol with a certain power structure. only a few app views will ever need to be contacted to shut down the virality of a post. the thinking based on the tech is Eurosky, not tens of servers in every city in Europe.

@wjmaggos

"fedi is currently safe and inviting"

I honestly stopped reading after this.

This is just not true, this is all well-documented.

https://logicmag.io/policy/blackness-in-the-fediverse-a-conversation-with-marcia-x/

https://privacy.thenexus.today/start-making-the-fediverse-less-toxic/

Plus all the times when a high-profile user got bullied off this platform.

@quillmatiq

@wjmaggos Now I finished the rest.

"it's still growing a protocol"

This is exactly my point. I don't think there's much more I can add here, so I will reiterate, one last time: ATProto is growing and changing while most of us debate the definition of the word "decentralized".

If you truly care about the fediverse, there are far more productive uses of your time.

@quillmatiq

@stefan I will never fight for Bluesky, I will always fight for atproto. I will never fight for Mastodon, I will always fight for ActivityPub. I believe in the community, not in the organizations with the largest representation.

@quillmatiq I’m still wondering what the future will look like: Is atproto ever going to be really distributed or will there only be very few “servers” (Relay + AppView)?

It’s interesting that there is now an alternative to bsky—Blacksky. But if someone on server B wants to follow someone on server A, server A has to index the follower’s PDS (otherwise, the followee doesn’t see the follower’s replies).

Is that eventually going to be solved? Is there even an interest in more distribution?

@nelfan

I suggest looking up "mastodon" on Bluesky.

There is about as many people complaining how bad the user experience is here as about the lack of the edit button on Bluesky, and other UX issues.

What does come up a lot is people complaining about the scoldy, gatekeepy culture on here. Screenshots of cringy posts from here get posted regularly.

Sometimes Mastodon, as a stand-in for the fediverse, just comes up randomly, as the butt of the joke.

But I get it. As a straight white dude, my experience on here is amazing! Nobody every bothers me. Maybe on occasion when I post anything pro-trans. But otherwise it's an easy ride. I love it!

I just wish the same for everyone else.

@quillmatiq

@stefan

@quillmatiq

Thank you for the links

I know I'm obviously white (see my profile) and I have never  proclaimed I'm straight because I don't need to throw it on the Fediverse. I don't see why I should, seeing that my involvement in the Fediverse has nothing to do with my sexual inclination.

Although I haven't seen many black people here, I have been following some of them because they communicate interesting content. But I haven't seen them complaining about racist harassment.
Maybe I should start investigating further.

@stefan *sigh*

@nelfan

I suggest looking up "mastodon" on Bluesky.

There is about as many people complaining how bad the user experience is here as about the lack of the edit button on Bluesky, and other UX issues.

What does come up a lot is people complaining about the scoldy, gatekeepy culture on here. Screenshots of cringy posts from here get posted regularly.

Sometimes Mastodon, as a stand-in for the fediverse, just comes up randomly, as the butt of the joke.

But I get it. As a straight white dude, my experience on here is amazing! Nobody every bothers me. Maybe on occasion when I post anything pro-trans. But otherwise it's an easy ride. I love it!

I just wish the same for everyone else.

@quillmatiq

@stefan @nelfan @quillmatiq I think you're mistaking toxicity for valid criticism to some extent here. There's a lot of this tribal thinking on Bluesky, as there is on this side. It has been interesting to see how with things like the wafflegate not all Bluesky users were on board with that and were actually willing to give Mastodon a chance because they weren't part of that original in-group that made part of their identity to be anti-Mastodon Blueskyers.

@stefan @nelfan @quillmatiq Bluesky actually gets lots of similar criticism as the fedi does. There's sometimes been a weekly "Bluesky is dying" article that users there come together to deride instead of considering if there's any valid criticism there.

If you engage a lot with the Bluesky advocates that come to the fediverse to play both sides while being clearly biased you may end up thinking fediverse culture is the worst and Bluesky is perfect...