Is #mastodon becoming an echo chamber?

@scottjenson @pmdj It's not an "evil plot" it's just irresponsible growth hacking that capitalist social media platforms are infamous for. People with shitty opinions drive rage engagement, so encourage them to come! 🤮

As I said when I first engaged with this thead, yes "more open to new ideas" and "more tolerant" are BAD THINGS without further qualification. "Diversity of opinion" is NOT a value. It's freeze-peach bro shit.

Yes we should strive to be as inclusive as possible towards people born different from us who have not had the same experiences, privilegs, etc. as us and whose needs, concerns, ways of communicating, etc. might be very different from our own.

This does not imply we should also be inclusive towards people who want to kiss tech industy ass.

@evan

there is a tremendous difference between "replace things we have used for millenia" (3 of the 4) and "slow down or even stop this thing we all did quite well without in very recent memory"

@skyfaller

@stefan @scottjenson

My two bits:

Calls for homogenity are pretty distasteful even on company platforms with detailed rules based on US legal and social agreements.

It's even more so in a multinational platform, where an impactful number of people are non-North Americans, or otherwise part of some "misunderstood minority".

Ofc there are some stuff that falls under "basic dignity", but in general it should be possible to live with different POVs without having to start flame wars.

@RealGene

So, what they’re looking for is evidence of being seen? Evidence of positive reactions? And without this evidence they’re unlikely to invest their time?

On my first reading of op I thought the primary point was about being less critical of “ai”-philes as a community. Now I’m not sure it was.

@scottjenson

If you had to pick, is your point about a cultural dynamic here around “AI” or about engagement metrics?

@evan

I mean, @skyfaller already told you he doesn't fly and you come back with this bit about accepting it being a lie?

your tone policing about "abuse" on the topic rings ever more hollow

@scottjenson Black people being harassed off of fedi was not caused by echo chambers. I'm really confused by the comparison.

You should also be aware that a lot of times, "echo chamber" is used as a criticism of *any moderation at all*, including the kind that would make the place safer for black people...

@DiogoConstantino @scottjenson @pmdj What I mean by tone policing is that often people with important critiques get dismissed for not being sufficiently subservient ("polite") towards power, when being subservient obviously would not get them what they need. And here on fedi, tone policing has been a classic vector of anti-Black racism. I would much rather hear someone speaking truth to power "impolitely" than hear someone being an apologist for power "politely".

@stepheneb @Veza85UE @CStamp

No one is defederating anyone. They are just actively swarming against these accounts, telling them to leave, making ad hominem attacks, etc.

Don't believe me? Just read the replies to my post! My point is simple: Mastodon should be a big tent, let in lots of folks and YOU create the feed you want.

@scottjenson @Gargron There is nothing, absolutely nothing, stopping anyone from creating and cultivating an AI community on Mastodon. Start a server. Knock yourself out.

But expecting to *farm acceptance* from a group of people, one which most members vastly dislike AI, is quite the hubris.

But sure, the community at large is the problem.

Clean up your kitchen and maybe folks will join you for a meal.

@CptSuperlative @RealGene

I was trying to make a point about "any group that doesn't feel welcome" here on mastodon, which you think would be a welcome topic. There are many and it's been widely discussed how a small number of people "tone police" chase off new users. (Spinning up your own instance is a tired and meaningless reply)

Foolishly, I picked an AI journalist as an example which just set off fires. Half the people were mad at me for "pushing AI slop", the other half saying that calling for more tolerance was "letting in fascists". There is no debate to be had with that framing.

I've been told a dozen times to "read the room" which is a pretty ominous warning. It basically admits the problem: there is "a room" of people that 'holds the line' on the right thing to say and believe.

@dalias to be polite and respectful, is not to be subservient. You can be those two things and stand your ground, be direct and say your thoughts, even veemently. We just don't need to dehumanize, to insult, dogpile, be obnoxious, or to behave even worse.

I'm not perfect, and I'm sure I did wrong to some, but I do aspire to strive for good and positive human interactions.

@scottjenson @pmdj

@scottjenson Yeah "read the room" is so ominous
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/read-the-room

As this conversation is spiraling a bit I want to make a few things clear:
1. I'd like Mastodon to be MORE inclusive and bring in more voices
2. Some people don't seem to want that
3. This is core problem to solve: How do we let more in, but not "pollute" your feed?
4. The solution is NOT "gatekeeping", revelling in the fact that AI journalists aren't welcome
5. This is the same reason we lost "Black Twitter" when it came over in 2022

Yes, a lot of you don't want AI posts in your feed (or pick any other topic) but the solution isn't to keep "AI People" from joining Mastodon, any more than it is keeping marginalized communities off of Mastodon.

@danbrotherston @scottjenson @patrick_h_lauke

Example: I have very strong negative opinions about AI. I also know that _almost everyone_ I've encountered IRL has at least found it _cool_. At least one friend has said they only avoid AI because they know _I_ don't like it.

Anyone talking about AI in anything resembling a positive light is probably going to have a bad time here. That's a _lot_ of normal people right now.

There's a lot of things that are normal that probably shouldn't be that people here do not like. This does not change that they are normal.

Normal people coming here and talking normally _will_ receive harassment because of it.

@scottjenson @carnage4life on the topic of AI, I find the abusive conversations on the Fediverse pretty dispiriting. People I like and respect have worked themselves into the position that use of AI is an inexcusable sin, and that anyone who uses AI merits harassment and abuse. Given that 85% of developers use or plan to use AI (Stack Overflow poll), that means a huge number of tech people getting brigaded by our anti-AI squad.

@Gargron That is a personal choice and one which I totally respect. But I do think Mastodon should be big enough, and open enough, to allow an "AI community" to form, even thrive.

Too many people in my replies don't seem to agree with that.

@stepheneb @Veza85UE @CStamp

No one is defederating anyone. They are just actively swarming against these accounts, telling them to leave, making ad hominem attacks, etc.

Don't believe me? Just read the replies to my post! My point is simple: Mastodon should be a big tent, let in lots of folks and YOU create the feed you want.

@CptSuperlative @RealGene

I was trying to make a point about "any group that doesn't feel welcome" here on mastodon, which you think would be a welcome topic. There are many and it's been widely discussed how a small number of people "tone police" chase off new users. (Spinning up your own instance is a tired and meaningless reply)

Foolishly, I picked an AI journalist as an example which just set off fires. Half the people were mad at me for "pushing AI slop", the other half saying that calling for more tolerance was "letting in fascists". There is no debate to be had with that framing.

I've been told a dozen times to "read the room" which is a pretty ominous warning. It basically admits the problem: there is "a room" of people that 'holds the line' on the right thing to say and believe.

As this conversation is spiraling a bit I want to make a few things clear:
1. I'd like Mastodon to be MORE inclusive and bring in more voices
2. Some people don't seem to want that
3. This is core problem to solve: How do we let more in, but not "pollute" your feed?
4. The solution is NOT "gatekeeping", revelling in the fact that AI journalists aren't welcome
5. This is the same reason we lost "Black Twitter" when it came over in 2022

Yes, a lot of you don't want AI posts in your feed (or pick any other topic) but the solution isn't to keep "AI People" from joining Mastodon, any more than it is keeping marginalized communities off of Mastodon.

@scottjenson I’m not interested in following any “AI people”. That doesn’t make it an echo chamber. We don’t need equal amounts of people who love puppies and want to kill puppies, not everything needs to be equally represented.