Is #mastodon becoming an echo chamber?
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Thank you both. But lets be clear, I didn't do a good job setting up my argument, it was confusing and unclear. I have to own that. My frustration was that I tried to correct the record and just continued to get yelled at.
So then, what sorts of changes “on the ground” would you like to see?
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@nikclayton Actually you said "It depends on what they're posting". My point is that, outside of anything that violates server rules, it shouldn't MATTER what they are posting. Let them post and be ignored.
My point was that this person was getting traction on these other platforms and not on mastodon. That was interesting to me. People yelling at me that "engagement doesn't matter" is moralizing. Either you believe in the fediverse or you don't.
I've been told countless times, spin up your own server. But people sure don't act like that's a good idea.
All I'm saying is you shouldn't care what they post. But again, because people like to throw "nazi" around, I'm not saying anything goes. But, if your server HATES AI and will defenderate anything with AI, I'm saying that's cool! Do it! That's how the fediverse should work
I'm surprised people don't actually believe in the letting the fediverse do it's thing.
> it shouldn't MATTER what they are posting. Let them post and be ignored.
Agreed. My "It depends" was my personal view on the accounts I follow, not a suggestion there should be a Fediverse-wide ban.
> My point was that this person was getting traction on these other platforms and not on mastodon.
In other words, he's posting and he's being ignored.
The system works as designed. What's the problem?
If @carnage4life@mas.to wants more engagement he should post more engaging things.
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@scottjenson @Gargron No, it fucking shouldn't.
@jwcph @scottjenson @Gargron design for your most vulnerable users first, then more people will come. You can’t just want everybody to show up. There’s a reason why I left Twitter so many years ago to begin with. I did not want the main stream Internet any longer. I wanted something quieter and more intimate. There’s a way we can keep it intimately small while improving its inclusiveness
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So then, what sorts of changes “on the ground” would you like to see?
@CptSuperlative
Let's start with a discussion of "how federation is supposed to work". Who is allowed in, when are they banned and when is their server defederated.Then ask "does this cover most of the bases?" If so, Can we then allow, say journalists in and if they are saying things you don't like, you can just ignore them, let server ban them, etc.
Great, so if we can agree that federation tools to kick out bad people, can we just open the door a TINY amount and let others in and NOT freak out?
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> it shouldn't MATTER what they are posting. Let them post and be ignored.
Agreed. My "It depends" was my personal view on the accounts I follow, not a suggestion there should be a Fediverse-wide ban.
> My point was that this person was getting traction on these other platforms and not on mastodon.
In other words, he's posting and he's being ignored.
The system works as designed. What's the problem?
If @carnage4life@mas.to wants more engagement he should post more engaging things.
@nikclayton I'm not arguing with that logic. I'm not saying you HAVE to like him. I'm trying to understand why people can't just ignore him.
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As this conversation is spiraling a bit I want to make a few things clear:
1. I'd like Mastodon to be MORE inclusive and bring in more voices
2. Some people don't seem to want that
3. This is core problem to solve: How do we let more in, but not "pollute" your feed?
4. The solution is NOT "gatekeeping", revelling in the fact that AI journalists aren't welcome
5. This is the same reason we lost "Black Twitter" when it came over in 2022Yes, a lot of you don't want AI posts in your feed (or pick any other topic) but the solution isn't to keep "AI People" from joining Mastodon, any more than it is keeping marginalized communities off of Mastodon.
@scottjenson
I think it's reasonable to say that #Mastodon is designed for and intended to be used by #humansOnly. -
@scottjenson
I think it's reasonable to say that #Mastodon is designed for and intended to be used by #humansOnly.@sloanlance And I agree!
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@AccordingtoWouter @scottjenson
Case in point: your average mastodon user sees a star of David, and that awakens in him a deep, ancestral memory of inking judenschwein and issuing blood libels.@bp @scottjenson @AccordingtoWouter
I'm willing to bet you're very wrong about that. -
As this conversation is spiraling a bit I want to make a few things clear:
1. I'd like Mastodon to be MORE inclusive and bring in more voices
2. Some people don't seem to want that
3. This is core problem to solve: How do we let more in, but not "pollute" your feed?
4. The solution is NOT "gatekeeping", revelling in the fact that AI journalists aren't welcome
5. This is the same reason we lost "Black Twitter" when it came over in 2022Yes, a lot of you don't want AI posts in your feed (or pick any other topic) but the solution isn't to keep "AI People" from joining Mastodon, any more than it is keeping marginalized communities off of Mastodon.
@scottjenson one question what does that have to do with mastodon? - mastodon is one platform in a sea of fediverse tools
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@scottjenson I’m not interested in following any “AI people”. That doesn’t make it an echo chamber. We don’t need equal amounts of people who love puppies and want to kill puppies, not everything needs to be equally represented.
@Gargron @scottjenson
I want to quote you and have that made into a cross-stitch wall hanging. -
@nikclayton I'm not arguing with that logic. I'm not saying you HAVE to like him. I'm trying to understand why people can't just ignore him.
@scottjenson Sometimes misinformation should be countered, sharply (blindly quoting Anthropic's claimed ARR without context is bordering on journalistic malpractice).
And https://xkcd.com/386/, obviously.
But that's also true of most interactions here, including this one. I could have scrolled past your post that someone else quoted into my feed, shook my head, decided that countering the narrative you'd constructed wasn't worth my time, and carried on.
And yet... here we are.
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@gavin57 @scottjenson exactly, thank you. At this point "big tent" is a dogwhistle as well. So far I have not been interested in any of the bigger tents.
It's been called out elsewhere so I'd like to clarify: I don't believe the relative absence of pro-AI people here is a bad thing or a result of wrong behavior on the part of others, and I don't think we need to do anything about it. I intended to offer the argument that if that was a result of bad behavior, we have mechanisms for dealing with it, and we could put our attention toward improving those mechanisms. But I unintentionally validated that assumption and made inappropriate parallels to actual harassment campaigns. People not finding traction on mastodon because of their opinions on AI (or tech, or politics, or what have you) is their own problem.
The most important thing I missed earlier: nobody owes them anything. If people here don't want to interact with pro-AI accounts, even on unrelated topics, that's their right. The language of free speech is about people's right to shout into the void without being silenced by the government, not about their right to be a part of any community. This is a community, and it's a good thing to be intentional about how we curate it.
@iris @gavin57 @scottjenson the framing earlier in the thread "people interested in a thing" is also a dog whistle, the far-right habit of describing odious behaviours as if they're innocent
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@scottjenson Sometimes misinformation should be countered, sharply (blindly quoting Anthropic's claimed ARR without context is bordering on journalistic malpractice).
And https://xkcd.com/386/, obviously.
But that's also true of most interactions here, including this one. I could have scrolled past your post that someone else quoted into my feed, shook my head, decided that countering the narrative you'd constructed wasn't worth my time, and carried on.
And yet... here we are.
@nikclayton Again, we are in agreement. I think we actually agree on quite a bit. But this "countering" argument is used a bit too broadly, basically implying ALL journalists need to be countered.
My point is that some here want it both ways: 1) Anyone can spin up a server and 2) They really don't want to allow everyone in. I think people need to choose.
BTW, I appreciate your good faith effort to discuss this. My only goal was to have this discussion and learn (I've clearly made some mistakes in this whole post)
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@CptSuperlative
Let's start with a discussion of "how federation is supposed to work". Who is allowed in, when are they banned and when is their server defederated.Then ask "does this cover most of the bases?" If so, Can we then allow, say journalists in and if they are saying things you don't like, you can just ignore them, let server ban them, etc.
Great, so if we can agree that federation tools to kick out bad people, can we just open the door a TINY amount and let others in and NOT freak out?
I can’t think of any journalists I’ve blocked so I’m probably not your target audience.
That said, I do have a few quixotic axes to grind where my days are better if I’m not seeing certain posts. But I don’t think I generally block for mere disagreement.
So, is this the crux of things?:
- Too many folks on mastodon are hasty blockers such that safe, sane people (or as close as can be expected on mastodon) are essentially excluded for innocuous disagreements.
If this is your argument, I think I would like to hear more about how this is a real problem for a lot of people.
(I’m probably very far outside the loop and some infamous mastodon stuff just went down that I’m completely ignorant of.)
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Why is it that I suspect his "diverse community" doesn't include me?
That would be hilarious, if only it wasn't so... typical.
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@dalias to be polite and respectful, is not to be subservient. You can be those two things and stand your ground, be direct and say your thoughts, even veemently. We just don't need to dehumanize, to insult, dogpile, be obnoxious, or to behave even worse.
I'm not perfect, and I'm sure I did wrong to some, but I do aspire to strive for good and positive human interactions.
@DiogoConstantino @dalias @scottjenson @pmdj Diogo, if you only want positive human interactions, you do not want human interactions.
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As this conversation is spiraling a bit I want to make a few things clear:
1. I'd like Mastodon to be MORE inclusive and bring in more voices
2. Some people don't seem to want that
3. This is core problem to solve: How do we let more in, but not "pollute" your feed?
4. The solution is NOT "gatekeeping", revelling in the fact that AI journalists aren't welcome
5. This is the same reason we lost "Black Twitter" when it came over in 2022Yes, a lot of you don't want AI posts in your feed (or pick any other topic) but the solution isn't to keep "AI People" from joining Mastodon, any more than it is keeping marginalized communities off of Mastodon.
If you want this network to be more inclusive, you will need to start from a place of inclusion.
Your words were entirely the wrong way to try to make this place more inclusive. You launched the conversation by attempting to label critics and assholes with the same category, you presented your prescriptive solution instead of asking the folks who don't like ai to hear their concerns.
Share your perspective, sure, but start off from a place of curiosity, not dictating change.
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OK, this is going even MORE sideways so I need to make a few things clear:
1. I took a complex point and made it poorly
2. My goal was to ask for more inclusiveness
3. I am sickened by what happend to BlackTwitter and I don't want it recur
4. But I can't speak for BlackTwitter nor should I
5. I apologize to black mastodon users for making such a poor comparison
6. I'm not endorsing "AI Slop" they were a foil to make my point
7. I'm certainly NOT trying to compare AI bros to Black twitter (but, as I said, I can see how people made that connection. I'm trying to correct that here)@scottjenson Respectfully, Mastodon is less of an echo chamber than any social media on earth presently. That's exactly why people bounce off of it. There is absolutely nothing built into the system to shepherd you into a "good" experience. It's just humans. Love 'em or leave 'em, but if you stay it's on you to curate your experience. A lotta people don't like that, and that's OK. All Mastodon users ever asked for was the option to exist in a space they owned. Not for Threads, Bluesky, and Twitter to all shut down and everyone to be on Mastodon.
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@neoluddite @deFractal In 2016, I blocked a lot of people over politics. In retrospect, that turned out to have been entirely justified.
But when 2020 and 2022 came around I began facilitating discussions about important events. I had to unblock a bunch of people to do this. I decided it was better to be able engage with the people I didn’t agree with than to not.
(Yes, I recognize this is a form of privilege and not everyone can or should look it that way.)In the long run, people getting divided over deeply held principled beliefs only helps those who have no principles at all.
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@scottjenson Doesn't this just come down to toolset? Between lists, filters, mutes, etc. I can pretty much control what I see/don't see. All we have to do is make sure AI stuff is filterable and then everyone is happy, right? I must be missing something….
@tsutrav
You're missing the part where the AI fans have problems with understanding consent.They think they can pay somebody here to normalize them at us, like they do with all the ad money and Facebook/X.
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