Is #mastodon becoming an echo chamber?
-
@patrick_h_lauke So is the only alternative "number go DOWN" metrics? I'm not trying to be snarky, I'm trying to find a way to have both be possible: how can we keep our soul but still have a diverse community.
My concern is that your comment uses the "we don't want a number go up mentality" argument to hide the fact that our community is a mono culture.
@scottjenson @patrick_h_lauke
When Twitter went full Nazi Bar, a lot of writers and journalists I followed there came to Mastodon, where I duly followed them.Within a month, virtually all of them went silent here, but post regularly on Bluesky, where I maintain an account primarily to stake my username.
Since posting on two or more sites is a cut&paste exercise, I don't understand their behavior at all.
When broadcast media was invented, the only way to know if people were listening, then watching, was by sampling surveys.
Now, it's follower counts, or god forbid, boosts and likes. I do *read* print columnists whose opinions I don't like, and I often skip reading ones I do like if the topic holds no interest for me.Accordingly, I follow a lot of people here, but get more from the posts *they* boost, from people I don't follow.
So there's really no metric feedback for hundreds of posts I read every week, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be publishing here.
I do often boost items I like, but receive virtually no feedback from my small population of followers, whose change in numbers I don't track, but assume if they're still following me, they appreciate, or at least don't hate what I boost. My own posts are mostly whispers into the void (per the feedback), but that doesn't stop me from making them, and I assume they're glanced at the same as I do with what scrolls through my home feed.
-
@evan @scottjenson @MozillaAI Mastodon as a community is quite hostile to AI and anything that isn’t a criticism of AI is viewed with skepticism at best and typically with hostility as the default.
It’s unfortunate because, as in your Mozilla example, there is still time to shape how AI is used in our industry. It’s better to engage and try to influence it versus stick your head in the sand and have the change thrusted upon you.
@carnage4life @evan@cosocial.ca @scottjenson @MozillaAI hostility is a form of engagement and also an appropriate one compared to letting people/corporations with destructive world views into a community uncontested or tone policed (which itself would be an example of sticking your head in the sand).
-
@octothorpe i agree they are not exactly the same. But "inclusivity" is *always* a complicated topic and never an easy one to solve. Mastodon has always tried to be a safe haven for marginalized people (although it has been a bumpy road and could be better!)
My point is that many of the replies to my post were basically "AI bad, they shouldn't be here" and while I respect anyone's right to think that, it's something else to say we should actively chase them away. They are not nazis and they are not scammers (well, most of them aren't)
I'm just saying the kicking people out for their ideas is a slippery slope and one which we should discuss more and be very careful with.
@scottjenson @octothorpe yeah, I've been reading my this thread and the thing I keep coming back to is that the AI convos so frequently seem like ads. Also discussing anything else with someone who is using an LLM to create their posts/arguments.
I intentionally follow some bots, but I don't want to follow trolls or something that's basically a human directed LLM trying to convince me of something. That feels closer to an ad than a conversation or snippet of someone else's experience.
Do you think we should chase away ads?
-
@trevdev @cratermoon @Gargron @evan
You didn't answer MY question. Have you read the replies to my original post? People are actively joyfully attacking AI, making it clear not only are they not welcome, they should not be here.
To be clear. I"M NOT ENDORSING AI. I just used them as an example of this tendency to police the culture.
@scottjenson @trevdev @cratermoon @Gargron @evan associating hate for grifters with racism was a pretty fucking pathetic opening salvo mr professional thinker sir.
-
@Argyle13 I agree with everything that is important to you. I'm totally for you to have whatever community you want.
My only point (but clearly poorly worded) was that I think Mastodon could offer a bigger tent. If you don't like someone, don't follow them, block them, filter hashtags, whatever.
But I think that actively chasing people away "you don't like" is culturally very dangerous.
I say this GENERALLY, with no intent to boost or support AI, that was just an example that is a hot button here.
@scottjenson no worries aout whta you said, I am not chasing you. You have your opinions, I have got mine, both valid. But what I see around is people fed up with tech bros, AI down our throats in everything, and many european people sick of USA. So maybe you chose a tricky topic.
As other comment says, this is the echo chamber you make for yourself. Following hastaghs and interacting with others about the topics you want and love. And this is ok. Everyone can have its own echo chamber, and ok -
@dalias @octothorpe @trisweb @cratermoon @scottjenson @Gargron Yeah, I don't know what Fedi everyone else has been hanging out on, but there seem to be plenty of "AI" believers on here. I used to follow quite a number of them prior to their going off the LLM deep end. I have to maintain an extensive filter list to avoid having that stuff constantly surfacing in my feed.
This whole thing is just another variant of the tired old "free speech means you have to listen to my crap" argument.@pmdj @octothorpe @trisweb @cratermoon @scottjenson @Gargron Well fedi doesn't make you hear the bad opinions of people you chose not to follow by algorithmically putting them in your feed to make you mad and drive up engagement.
So that means you don't see the AI propagandists on here except when someone you follow is debunking them.
-
@scottjenson @trevdev @cratermoon @Gargron @evan associating hate for grifters with racism was a pretty fucking pathetic opening salvo mr professional thinker sir.
-
I'm afraid we can't agree on the single item only that you are cherrypicking here.
If you feel "policed", your own argument applies: block them, or block their server.
>If you feel "policed", your own argument applies: block them, or block their server.
Yeah, we definitely seem to disagree. Mind you, I have not encountered this problem directly, but being constantly told how to post by complete strangers on servers I haven't even heard of doesn't sound like a fun experience.
Yeah, maybe I will block one or two people, but I can see how that can get tiring, and people just end up leaving.
I just don't think everything requires a response. People might just think a bit too highly about their opinions on here.
-
@scottjenson @carnage4life I think you’re just unhappy that there’s no billionaire-funded agenda algorithm here to force AI-bullshit into everyone’s feed.
There’s way less *actual* human interest in AI than you want to believe.
@markc568 This.
-
As this conversation is spiraling a bit I want to make a few things clear:
1. I'd like Mastodon to be MORE inclusive and bring in more voices
2. Some people don't seem to want that
3. This is core problem to solve: How do we let more in, but not "pollute" your feed?
4. The solution is NOT "gatekeeping", revelling in the fact that AI journalists aren't welcome
5. This is the same reason we lost "Black Twitter" when it came over in 2022Yes, a lot of you don't want AI posts in your feed (or pick any other topic) but the solution isn't to keep "AI People" from joining Mastodon, any more than it is keeping marginalized communities off of Mastodon.
It's called a 'marketplace of ideas'.
Also known as: 'If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen'.
If a ton of people criticize your choices and your technical positions, maybe the problem is YOU and not the people doing the criticizing? Just a thought.
-
@OtterMatic that's not what I'm asking for!
@scottjenson no it’s what I’m asking for. Fediverse is for humans
-
@Gargron That is a personal choice and one which I totally respect. But I do think Mastodon should be big enough, and open enough, to allow an "AI community" to form, even thrive.
Too many people in my replies don't seem to agree with that.
@scottjenson @Gargron whoever wants it can easily spin up hier own instance - et voila. Where is the problem???
-
>If you feel "policed", your own argument applies: block them, or block their server.
Yeah, we definitely seem to disagree. Mind you, I have not encountered this problem directly, but being constantly told how to post by complete strangers on servers I haven't even heard of doesn't sound like a fun experience.
Yeah, maybe I will block one or two people, but I can see how that can get tiring, and people just end up leaving.
I just don't think everything requires a response. People might just think a bit too highly about their opinions on here.
I believe you have nailed it:
»Yeah, maybe I will block one or two people, but I can see how that can get tiring, and people just end up leaving.«
That's precisely why your "you can block them" is useless "advice". It is a pity that you only realized that once your own advice was mirrored back to you.
We have to agree to disagree here, I agree.
-
@dalias @octothorpe @trisweb @cratermoon @scottjenson @Gargron Yeah, I don't know what Fedi everyone else has been hanging out on, but there seem to be plenty of "AI" believers on here. I used to follow quite a number of them prior to their going off the LLM deep end. I have to maintain an extensive filter list to avoid having that stuff constantly surfacing in my feed.
This whole thing is just another variant of the tired old "free speech means you have to listen to my crap" argument.That is the exact opposite of what I said. I'm saying the fediverse gives you the tools to follow/block/filter/ to your hearts content to create the space you want.
What is corrosive is people ACTIVELY going after people they don't agree with. Just look at the replies to my post to get small sample.
My point was, I thought, very simple, and very reasonable: we should be more welcoming of more opinions. If you don't like them, then don't follow them. That should be the fedi-way. To be clear, I'm NOT endorsing AI, it just used it as an example.
Instead I'm living the very point I was trying to make. I've been told to leave, called a racist, and had ad hominem attacks leveled at me.
Now to be fair, my original post was poorly worded. I've owned that
https://social.coop/@scottjenson/116358195717244835 -
@leadore People are actively telling me to leave mastodon. They are making ad hominem attacks. I'm living the point I was trying to make.
My point wasn't to compare the other platforms and I certainly didn't intend to endorse AI (or that particular account).
My point, which has been proven by the reply I got to my post, is that a small group of people here are seen as "cultural enforcers" and actively attack people they disagree with. To the point of CREATING a disagreement in order to be angry (for example calling me rascist)
Now to be very clear. My original post was very poorly worded and I made a mistake. I've owned that and apologized. There is just so little room in here for grace.
@scottjenson "cultural enforcer" is funny.
-
Is #mastodon becoming an echo chamber? This post from @carnage4life has me questioning our community. The Mastodon team is finally getting some traction, the product improvements are increasing, The #UX is improving, yet people posting on multiple platforms are making comments like this. It's confusing.
I *know* people here don't want this to be a classic social media-clone but we'd *like* journalists to be here right? They aren't coming with examples like this!
Few accounts with huge follower counts *make* an echo chamber, though I suppose it’s nice if you’re professionally being echoed.
Without the loud voices, there are more voices.
-
@leadore People are actively telling me to leave mastodon. They are making ad hominem attacks. I'm living the point I was trying to make.
My point wasn't to compare the other platforms and I certainly didn't intend to endorse AI (or that particular account).
My point, which has been proven by the reply I got to my post, is that a small group of people here are seen as "cultural enforcers" and actively attack people they disagree with. To the point of CREATING a disagreement in order to be angry (for example calling me rascist)
Now to be very clear. My original post was very poorly worded and I made a mistake. I've owned that and apologized. There is just so little room in here for grace.
@scottjenson @leadore - As someone who has been on Mastodon since 2016 and actively championed and promoted it, I'm sad to be seeing the attacks you are currently getting.
Those kind of attacks are exactly the reason so many of us stopped using X/Twitter.
So I do hope you stay, despite the vitriol. I thought you asked a reasonable question, and I've seen some civil and reasonable responses.
-
Is #mastodon becoming an echo chamber? This post from @carnage4life has me questioning our community. The Mastodon team is finally getting some traction, the product improvements are increasing, The #UX is improving, yet people posting on multiple platforms are making comments like this. It's confusing.
I *know* people here don't want this to be a classic social media-clone but we'd *like* journalists to be here right? They aren't coming with examples like this!
@scottjenson @carnage4life Reporters want to broadcast as oppose to engage. Mastodon simply isn't built for broadcasting as it has no algorithm. Also it's far less bot laden than the other networks so if you're using likes as an engagement meter without an analysis of who is liking your content you're not getting valid results. One other thing Mastodon is engagement driven so you need to have a followers to follow ratio that is as close to even as you can get, most reporters don't cultivate that
-
That is the exact opposite of what I said. I'm saying the fediverse gives you the tools to follow/block/filter/ to your hearts content to create the space you want.
What is corrosive is people ACTIVELY going after people they don't agree with. Just look at the replies to my post to get small sample.
My point was, I thought, very simple, and very reasonable: we should be more welcoming of more opinions. If you don't like them, then don't follow them. That should be the fedi-way. To be clear, I'm NOT endorsing AI, it just used it as an example.
Instead I'm living the very point I was trying to make. I've been told to leave, called a racist, and had ad hominem attacks leveled at me.
Now to be fair, my original post was poorly worded. I've owned that
https://social.coop/@scottjenson/116358195717244835@scottjenson @pmdj No, we absolutely should NOT be "welcoming more opinions". "Diversity of thought" is NOT a value. Some opinions are wrong. They may have a right to exist, as long as they're not nazi opinions (those have no right to even exist), but that doesn't mean we have to welcome them. It's perfectly fine to tell people off for having bad opinions, to shun them, to let them share those bad opinions only with whoever is willing to listen to them and not in our circles.
If that causes them to leave fedi, that's not a bad thing.
-
@scottjenson reminds me of how Chiquita Banana account on Twitter had a recorded statement apologizing for the banana wars.
Well, best of luck in your position of authority.
Hello! It looks like you're interested in this conversation, but you don't have an account yet.
Getting fed up of having to scroll through the same posts each visit? When you register for an account, you'll always come back to exactly where you were before, and choose to be notified of new replies (either via email, or push notification). You'll also be able to save bookmarks and upvote posts to show your appreciation to other community members.
With your input, this post could be even better 💗
Register Login