Is #mastodon becoming an echo chamber?
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@cratermoon @scottjenson @Gargron
The thing with Mastodon that many people aren't used to wrapping their heads around anymore is that you can build your own "small web" community around at topic you care about. You could call these communities echo chambers if you like. At least we decide what we see.
You can take @evan's comment to heart and go create your own Mastodon instance dedicated to AI. That's fine! You can have your friends there and uninterested people can just ignore it.
@trevdev @cratermoon @Gargron @evan
You didn't answer MY question. Have you read the replies to my original post? People are actively joyfully attacking AI, making it clear not only are they not welcome, they should not be here.
To be clear. I"M NOT ENDORSING AI. I just used them as an example of this tendency to police the culture.
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@scottjenson @awfulwoman I find it mindblowing that you think Obasanjo "isn't getting traction" when he's one of the most followed people on the network. If I were looking for examples of gatekeeping journalists off of the fediverse, he's one of the last accounts I'd think to cite. Which makes it seem like the part of his post that really led you down this path was "hates AI." And it may be true that the fediverse is more hostile toward AI than Threads or Bluesky, but that clearly hasn't led our network to ostracize Obasanjo. So what actually is the complaint here?
@lrhodes @scottjenson @awfulwoman
Has Obasanjo been 'chased away' from the Fedi by the 1%?
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@scottjenson @CStamp OK, but genuinely why is it a problem for you that "AI journalists" aren't welcome? Why are they owed attention/welcoming eyeballs?
@Veza85UE @scottjenson @CStamp Maybe because "AI journalists" (what does that even mean, I assume we're talking about journalists writing about AI?) are human beings first and are owed to be welcomed as such.
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@scottjenson @octothorpe please don't conflate "AI people" with actual marginalize groups.
Some ideas are bad and should be treated like they're bad. Current AI models are built by exploiting pretty much everyone. They're hiking up the cost of computers and basic utilities. They're probably going to completely destroy the global economy when the bubble pops.
I don't have to be welcoming to people who are going to stan for something that is actively causing harm.
@aleen the one thing I love about AI apologists is they make it really obvious you need to block them
Imagine truly believing that technology isn't political.
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As this conversation is spiraling a bit I want to make a few things clear:
1. I'd like Mastodon to be MORE inclusive and bring in more voices
2. Some people don't seem to want that
3. This is core problem to solve: How do we let more in, but not "pollute" your feed?
4. The solution is NOT "gatekeeping", revelling in the fact that AI journalists aren't welcome
5. This is the same reason we lost "Black Twitter" when it came over in 2022Yes, a lot of you don't want AI posts in your feed (or pick any other topic) but the solution isn't to keep "AI People" from joining Mastodon, any more than it is keeping marginalized communities off of Mastodon.
@scottjenson You know, personally, I like that I don't see a ton of Bitcoin people here.
AI folks can feel free to spin up their own instances and their admins can choose to defederate and block folks they see as hostile.
Also, incredible take to compare AI boosters to marginalized communities. Just chef's kiss.
To be clear I think Mastodon's racism problem is real but I don't think AI boosters not finding an audience here is the same problem.
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@scottjenson @carnage4life
So somebody wrote a brief statement for each of 3 platforms stating their conclusion about the people on each feel about politics, tech, and AI (without nuance).So from that you conclude that Mastodon is becoming an echo chamber or monoculture, but not the other two?--even though they were also summed up as having a particular attitude toward each topic? Or are you saying, yes the other two are monocultures but Mastodon shouldn't be?
The other problem I see with your conclusion is that you assume his yardstick (# of followers and likes) for measuring how the vast majority of people on each platform feel about the topics is an accurate and reliable way to describe the platforms' overall attitudes and cultures.
Have you read the replies to my post? People are actively, joyfully stating that AI should not be here. That is my cultural point, that instead of using the tools of federation to get the feed you want, people are actively chasing away people they don't like.
To be very clear. I"M NOT ENDORSING AI. I just used it as an example of how sensitive people are and how willing they are to go after people they don't agree with.
Why is asking for 'a bigger tent' seen as such a negative thing?
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@aleen the one thing I love about AI apologists is they make it really obvious you need to block them
Imagine truly believing that technology isn't political.
@aleen Imagine truly believing that a technology whose inherent structure replicates and amplifies human unconscious bias isn't racist.
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@Veza85UE @scottjenson @CStamp Maybe because "AI journalists" (what does that even mean, I assume we're talking about journalists writing about AI?) are human beings first and are owed to be welcomed as such.
@ilumium @scottjenson @CStamp I don't know what that means either, and I especially don't know what it means that they're apparently "not allowed" on Mastodon. I'm not aware of anyone banning them, idk. This seems to me like an imaginary problem. I went upthread and read that guy's screenshot and it says "Hates AI". OK, so this isn't the platform for "AI journalists", there are others where they'd be happier doing their thing. Don't see how that's a problem.
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@falcennial @Gargron @bogosian @scottjenson I should have named my instance admin account John… regrets.
Suppose I can spin up another account for when he’s summoned.
Good idea, mine should then be “Go Social”, cause when you have an issue you can Go to Social on #GoToSocial
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Is #mastodon becoming an echo chamber? This post from @carnage4life has me questioning our community. The Mastodon team is finally getting some traction, the product improvements are increasing, The #UX is improving, yet people posting on multiple platforms are making comments like this. It's confusing.
I *know* people here don't want this to be a classic social media-clone but we'd *like* journalists to be here right? They aren't coming with examples like this!
@scottjenson @carnage4life I think you’re just unhappy that there’s no billionaire-funded agenda algorithm here to force AI-bullshit into everyone’s feed.
There’s way less *actual* human interest in AI than you want to believe.
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Have you read the replies to my post? People are actively, joyfully stating that AI should not be here. That is my cultural point, that instead of using the tools of federation to get the feed you want, people are actively chasing away people they don't like.
To be very clear. I"M NOT ENDORSING AI. I just used it as an example of how sensitive people are and how willing they are to go after people they don't agree with.
Why is asking for 'a bigger tent' seen as such a negative thing?
@scottjenson@social.coop @leadore@sunny.garden
Because if your bigger includes AI accounts, post it is objectively a negative thing.
I'm all for a bigger tent as long as it does not allow AI! -
@scottjenson yeah I had a pretty kneejerk reaction when I saw that comparison because it read like it was borderline racist to me.
I think that the fediverse should absolutely be better to minorities, especially Black communities, because we have had a pretty terrible track record in that regard. at the same time, a lot of people on here (and bluesky too!) are very tech-skeptic so of course posts about AI would be met with a negative response. I think there's some merit in trying to balance out supporting different and unique cultures but also understanding which topics might be considered taboo on here.
and then again, a lot of people have become very militant about the things that they don't like and should be a lot more accepting instead of immediately bringing out the pitchforks! I'll admit that I'm guilty of that too. everything is a huge delicate balance that I feel might be a good conversation if AI wasn't involved.
I'm just rambling at this point though
@eblu thanks for that thoughtful response.
What makes this such a complex topic is that people can think whatever they want! Hate AI? Fine! I'm not against anyone having those opinions.
My point was more 'why do we have to chase them away?'. I'm not endorsing AI by the way, I'm just using them as an example.
If we feel justified chasing AI bros away, we can chase others away. That doesn't feel like a good long term plan.
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@scottjenson you are absolutely not the problem here.
@toddsundsted Thank you, I needed to hear that right now...
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Is #mastodon becoming an echo chamber? This post from @carnage4life has me questioning our community. The Mastodon team is finally getting some traction, the product improvements are increasing, The #UX is improving, yet people posting on multiple platforms are making comments like this. It's confusing.
I *know* people here don't want this to be a classic social media-clone but we'd *like* journalists to be here right? They aren't coming with examples like this!
@scottjenson
I think you're right, in that many people on Mastodon are hostile (occasionally somewhat unreasonably so) to AI, but there are a couple of things that you don't consider:1. AI is a hot-button topic right now. Between the widespread plundering of worker value (books, code, etc) and the environmental damage and the ongoing assault on the internet by slop generators, it can feel that AI is a threat to things that people hold dear. Coming into this with a "but look at the cool thing I did, bro" attitude that tech journalism can have is a little insensitive.
2. I don't know about anyone else, but I came to Mastodon to avoid being peppered with what is essentially marketing from large companies. AI is so bound up in big money, it's hard to tell the marketing from reality at times. So I self-select out.
(Also, as a bunch of people have already pointed out, antipathy toward AI is not the same as harassment of Black people).
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@trevdev @cratermoon @Gargron @evan
You didn't answer MY question. Have you read the replies to my original post? People are actively joyfully attacking AI, making it clear not only are they not welcome, they should not be here.
To be clear. I"M NOT ENDORSING AI. I just used them as an example of this tendency to police the culture.
@scottjenson @cratermoon @Gargron @evan
Welcome to the Internet? People here don't have to hold back their opinions or in many cases their emotional damage about anything.
Suppressing people in actual, popular algorithmic echo chambers is not a better Internet. Giving people space to heal and process is.
I'm also on LinkedIn where AI is shoved down my gullet in very misleading/harmful ways and I see why they feel that way.
If we don't like what people are doing here we stop listening.
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How many of these responses are asking for defederation of instances which don’t ban posts about AI? I’m sure some instances might have such a policy but defederation only seems to happen at a large scale for instances that support Nazis, racists, csam, have no effective moderation, or have open unchecked signups (spam vector).
The existing tools work ok for avoiding folks with strong opinions you don’t want to hear.
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As this conversation is spiraling a bit I want to make a few things clear:
1. I'd like Mastodon to be MORE inclusive and bring in more voices
2. Some people don't seem to want that
3. This is core problem to solve: How do we let more in, but not "pollute" your feed?
4. The solution is NOT "gatekeeping", revelling in the fact that AI journalists aren't welcome
5. This is the same reason we lost "Black Twitter" when it came over in 2022Yes, a lot of you don't want AI posts in your feed (or pick any other topic) but the solution isn't to keep "AI People" from joining Mastodon, any more than it is keeping marginalized communities off of Mastodon.
Speaking as an "AI person", it's worth distinguishing between the uncritical AI boosters, and the AI experts (including journos) who may just have complex opinions.
I pick a lot of people up on poor AI criticism. Not because I think AI is so great and we should embrace it, but because we need a better class of criticism.
It can also be tricky when Mastodon expects perfect purity. I'm very AI critical, but not always. If that's not good enough, we're on a dangerous road.
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Have you read the replies to my post? People are actively, joyfully stating that AI should not be here. That is my cultural point, that instead of using the tools of federation to get the feed you want, people are actively chasing away people they don't like.
To be very clear. I"M NOT ENDORSING AI. I just used it as an example of how sensitive people are and how willing they are to go after people they don't agree with.
Why is asking for 'a bigger tent' seen as such a negative thing?
@scottjenson
Personally I see quite a lot of pro-AI posts in my feed because I see a lot of tech posts in it, based on the fact that a few people I follow are in tech, and a hashtag I follow happens to also get used by a lot of tech-oriented people.And of course, I also see a ton of anti-AI posts for the same reasons--who and what hashtags I follow. If you want to see more pro-AI stuff, follow the hashtags and people who post it. You make your own algorithm here.
And if you want to get replies from pro-AI people, use hashtags in your post that will get more of them to see it.
All that said, you didn't answer the questions I asked--are the other two platforms also monocultures based on that guy's statements about them? And do you think his metrics are the way to form a conclusion about it?
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How many of these responses are asking for defederation of instances which don’t ban posts about AI? I’m sure some instances might have such a policy but defederation only seems to happen at a large scale for instances that support Nazis, racists, csam, have no effective moderation, or have open unchecked signups (spam vector).
The existing tools work ok for avoiding folks with strong opinions you don’t want to hear.
No one is defederating anyone. They are just actively swarming against these accounts, telling them to leave, making ad hominem attacks, etc.
Don't believe me? Just read the replies to my post! My point is simple: Mastodon should be a big tent, let in lots of folks and YOU create the feed you want.
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@scottjenson The reasons black people were rejected are _not_ the same reasons techbros are being rejected. You need to learn about what racism is: it's not a lack of inclusivity or being closed to different opinions, it's the structure we are all swimming in that is racist and needs to be worked on. It's the black people saying "please don't make it hard for us" and not listening to them. The women saying "replyguys are annoying" and not giving them an infrastructure that works for them by default. The work is on acknowledging the structure we're in, the actions we do that keep it in motion.
You're approaching this as a simple intellectual dissensus, a divergence in opinions, when it just isn't.
Groups that aren't marginalized don't matter. Society gives them all the tools, comfort and mindspace to take care of what they want to do. Focusing on them only enforces the marginalization of others. Instead, focusing on the marginalized and their needs help reduce disparities for everyone instead.
Non-marginalized people didn't leave because they were suffering yet again the same marginalization they endure everywhere else; they leave because they don't find what they want. Which is fine.@rakoo @scottjenson
" focusing on the marginalized and their needs help reduce disparities for everyone instead"
You're obviously aware of what's called the curb-cut effect. For those unfamiliar with the term:
https://ssir.org/articles/entry/the_curb_cut_effect
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